ISO 45001： 共同行动，以建立积极的健康安全文化

音频时长：21分钟

在本期节目中，我们继续与ISO职业健康与安全管理技术委员会主席Martin Cottam对话。我们将讨论要建立积极的安全和健康文化，员工参与的重要性。

文字转录： ISO 45001 共同行动

您可以直接收听播客，或者您也可以阅读下面的文字转录。

Can you tell us about the importance of worker participation in OH&S Management, this seems to be a big theme in ISO 45001 and OH&S Management in general?
您能否为我们讲解职业健康安全管理中员工参与的重要性，这似乎是ISO 45001和总体职业健康安全管理中的一个重大主题？

OH&S has long been seen as an area requiring collaboration in order to secure the best results and I think this applies at various levels. Starting really at the level of public policy where there’s been a long established tripartite approach, meaning that public policy including regulation of OH&S is developed through collaboration and dialogue between government, employer representatives and worker representatives. And then this carries through to individual organisations where collaboration between employers and workers can really play a big part in achieving good OH&S performance.
职业健康与安全长期以来一直被视为一个需要合作，以确保最佳结果的领域，而且我认为这适用于各个层面。首先从公共方针层面开始。这是一个长期建立的三方方法，意味着公共方针包括职业健康安全监管在内，是通过政府、雇主代表和员工代表之间的合作和对话来制定的。然后这会延续到各个组织，在这些组织中，雇主和员工之间的合作可以真正在实现良好的职业健康安全绩效方面发挥重要作用。

For a long time you know we’ve recognised the value of involving workers in specific areas of OHS management such as risk assessment. Since its often only workers themselves who know exactly how work is carried out in practice which of course may well be different from the way that work was originally envisaged to be carried out or different from the way that managers imagine work is carried out. So that detailed understanding that workers bring is really needed to accurately understand the risks.
长期以来，我们已经认识到让员工参与职业健康安全管理的特定领域（如风险评估）的价值。因为，往往只有员工自己知道工作实际是如何进行的，当然，这很可能与最初设想的工作进行方式不同，或者与管理人员想象的工作进行方式不同。因此，为了准确地了解风险，确实需要用到员工对那些情况的详细了解。

And then beyond that when it comes to controlling those risks worker input is valuable again because it helps ensure that the controls are practicable and that they really and realistically can be applied in practice and in the day to day context. And another factor is what we sometimes describe as not invented here meaning that workers are rather less likely to apply controls and ways of working on which they haven’t been consulted and in which they have had no input. And they’re much more likely to apply controls which they themselves have helped to design and that they have agreed are necessary and appropriate.
此外，在涉及控制这些风险时，员工的意见也很有价值，因为它有助于确保控制措施切实可行，且确实可以在实践中和在日常环境中得到应用。另一个因素是我们有时称之为“非我发明（Not Invented Here - NIH）”的情况，意思是员工不太可能采用没有咨询过他们以及他们没有提供输入的控制措施和工作方式。他们更有可能采用他们自己帮助设计的，而且他们认可是必要和合适的控制措施。

Now there has been as I say this long tradition of involving workers in some parts of the OHS management system such as risk assessment but ISO 45001 goes much further because ISO 45001 effectively says that workers should be consulted and/or participate in all aspects of the OHS management system. And this approach counters the risk of workers perceiving the OHS management system as something not invented here and instead encourages them to see it as a system that they can help shape and influence in order that everyone is better protected. And that requires a willingness on all parts to engage in constructive debate and of course there’s always a degree of compromise as is necessary in the management of really of any business risk.
现在，正如我所说，让员工参与职业健康安全管理体系的某些部分（如风险评估）已经有了悠久的传统，但ISO 45001更进一步，因为ISO 45001有效地指出，在职业健康安全管理体系的所有方面，应该进行员工协商和/或员工参与。这种方法可以避免员工认为职业健康安全管理体系是”非我发明（NIH）“的，而是鼓励他们将其视为一个他们可以帮助塑造和影响的体系，以使每个人得到更好的保护。这需要所有各方都愿意参与建设性的辩论，当然，总有一定程度的让步，这在管理任何商业风险方面都是必要的。 

Worker participation seems to have been more strongly emphasised in ISO 45001 than it was in previous standards, is that the case?
与以前的标准相比，ISO 45001中似乎更强调员工参与，情况是否如此？

I would argue that ISO 45001 certainly does allow for healthy negotiation because it encourages there to be consultation and participation of workers across all aspects of the OHS management system. And that of course means that those involved are more likely to get to see the whole picture rather than being consulted piecemeal on isolated issues without an awareness of that broader context. So I think it does provide a very sound foundation for healthy negotiation in that respect.
我想说的是，ISO 45001确实允许有益的协商，因为它鼓励在职业健康安全管理体系的所有方面都有员工协商和参与。当然，这意味着参与其中的人员更有可能看到全局，而不是在对更广泛背景不知情的情况下就孤立的问题被逐个咨询。所以我认为，它在这方面确实为有益的协商提供了一个非常健全的基础。

It's also worth highlighting I think that ISO 45001 talks about both consultation and participation meaning two quite different things and actually this was an area where the project committee that was drafting ISO 45001 had considerable difficulty. Because it gradually became clear to us rather painfully that in different parts of the world those two terms consultation and participation are interpreted quite differently.
还值得强调的是，我认为ISO 45001谈到的协商和参与是两件完全不同的事情，实际上这也是起草ISO 45001的项目委员会遇到很大困难的地方。因为我们逐渐发现，在世界的不同地方，对协商和参与这两个词的解释是相当不同的，这让我们感到非常棘手。

I mean if I were to ask you which do you think represents a greater level of involvement for workers consultation or participation? Well from a UK perspective we’d tend to answer by saying that we see consultation as being more limited involvement, just simply being asked for ones views on something. And that from a UK perspective participation in decision making represents a higher level of involvement, a greater level.
我的意思是，如果我问您，您认为哪一个代表了员工的更高投入水平，协商还是参与？ 从英国的角度来看，我们倾向于回答说，我们认为协商是更有限的投入，只是简单地被问及对某事的看法。而且，从英国的角度来看，参与决策代表了更高的投入水平，更卓越的水平。

So for us worker involvement is more limited in consultation and more extensive if you participate in decision making but as the project committee discovered in some parts of the world the interpretation of these terms is almost exactly the opposite with consultation representing the higher level of involvement. So you can imagine how difficult and confusing those discussions were in the project committee before we gradually came to understand that it was the understanding of the terms which was not consistent across the team.
因此，对我们来说，员工的投入在协商中是比较有限的，如果您参与决策，则是比较有深度的投入，但正如项目委员会所发现的，在世界的某些地方，对这些术语的解释几乎完全相反，协商反而代表了更高的投入水平。所以您可以想象，在我们逐渐了解到是团队上下对术语的理解不一致之前，这些讨论在项目委员会中是多么困难和混乱。

And that’s in fact why those two terms are so carefully defined in ISO 45001 and by the way it’s a good example really of why its always useful to look really carefully at the terms and definitions section of a standard, its often the section people gloss over and move quickly on to the meat of the standard but it really is quite an important section at times to refer to.
这就是为什么在ISO 45001中如此仔细地定义这两个术语的原因，顺便说一句，这确实是一个很好的例子，说明为什么仔细查看标准的术语和定义部分总是有用的，人们往往会掩盖这部分并迅速进入标准的核心内容，但有时它确实是一个非常重要的部分。

Now ISO 45001 separately specifies those matters on which workers and their representatives should be consulted and those matters on which workers should participate in decision making. So for example workers should be consulted on the OH&S policy, assignment of OH&S roles and responsibilities and the establishment of objectives on things like the audit programme controls for outsourcing, and procurement, and contractors interestingly. Whereas the list of matters on which there should be worker participation in decision making includes identifying hazards and addressing risks which we spoke about earlier, determining controls, competence requirements, communication requirements and involvement in investigation of incidents and non-conformities.
现在，ISO 45001分别规定了应该与员工及其代表协商的事项，以及员工应该参与决策的事项。因此，应该就职业健康安全方针、职业健康安全角色和职责的分配，以及对外包、采购和承包商的审核方案控制等目标的建立等等事项与员工协商。而员工应该参与决策的事项清单包括识别危险源和处理风险（我们之前谈到过）、确定控制措施、能力要求、沟通要求以及参与事故和不符合项的调查。

I know that back at the time when ISO 45001 was being developed some people questioned whether organisations would hesitate to apply the new standard because these requirements for worker involvement seemed to be more extensive. But that discussion really disappeared very quickly when the standard was published, and as we know almost every organisation that had previously adopted OHSAS 18001 migrated to ISO 45001 and also a significant number of organisations which didn’t previously use OHSAS, or any other OH&S management system standard, have adopted ISO 45001.
我知道，早在制定ISO 45001的时候，有些人就质疑组织是否会对采用新标准犹豫不决，因为这些标准对员工投入的要求似乎更为广泛。但在标准公布后，这种讨论真的很快就消失了，正如我们所知，几乎所有以前采用OHSAS 18001的组织都迁移到了ISO 45001，也有大量以前没有采用OHSAS或其他职业健康与安全管理体系标准的组织采用了ISO 45001。

So I can only conclude that users don’t see these requirements as excessive but rather that they, you know they appreciate how much more effective their OHS management can be when workers are fully involved in shaping the approach and when they fully buy into the system.
因此，我只能得出这样的结论，即使用者并不认为这些要求是过分的，而您知道，他们重视员工在完全接受这个体系后充分投入到制定方法中，从而让职业健康安全管理的效果显著提高。

What does ISO 45001 require regarding worker involvement and does it allow for the healthy negotiation between workers and management?
ISO 45001对员工参与有什么要求？它是否允许员工和管理层进行健康的谈判？

In many ways the area of worker participation and consultation was the one in which ISO 45001 departed furthest from that generic framework for all ISO management system standards known as Annex SL. Because it effectively gave worker participation and consultation an equal status alongside leadership, leadership of course being one of those standard elements in the Annex SL structure and in that respect, it also went further than the predecessor standards such as OHSAS 18001.
在许多方面，员工参与和协商是ISO 45001与所有ISO管理体系标准附录SL的通用架构最大的区别。因为它有效地赋予员工参与和协商与领导作用同等的地位，领导作用当然是附录SL架构的标准元素之一，在这方面，它也比之前的标准如OHSAS 18001走得更远。

And I think the explanation for this difference between ISO 45001 and OSHAS 18001 is partly to do with the different range of stakeholders who contributed to and influenced the content of the two standards. There was a much broader set of stakeholders involved in the ISO process with stronger participation from those representing workers including the International Labour Organisation, the ILO, as a participant in the project committee and many more worker representatives among the participants nominated by national standards bodies. It is in fact one of the real strengths of ISO and its processes that those processes allow for and encourage very wide and diverse participation in shaping the content of standards.
我认为关于ISO 45001和OSHAS 18001之间差异的解释，有一部分与不同范围的利益相关方有关，他们对这两个标准都有贡献，并影响了标准的内容。参与ISO进程的利益相关方范围更广，员工代表的参与力度更大，包括作为项目委员会参与者的国际劳工组织(ILO)，以及各国家标准机构提名的参与者中的员工代表。事实上，ISO及其过程的真正优势之一是，这些过程允许并鼓励非常广泛和多样化的参与，以制定标准的内容。

Thinking of the ISO OHS committee today, we have involvement from 100 countries, the vast majority of those are active as participants but some are observers who still can and do comment on our work at any stage. Now that national input is in turn formulated by mirror committees which again bring together a wide diversity of stakeholders and those committees typically vary in size from perhaps a handful of people in some countries to over 100 people in the case of the USA and the UK is somewhere around half that size.
想想今天的ISO OHS委员会，我们有来自100个国家的参与，其中绝大多数是活跃的参与者，但也有一些是观察员，这些观察员可以在任何阶段对我们的工作进行评论。现在国家层面的输入是由镜子委员会提供，镜子委员会汇集了各方面的利益相关方以及大小不等的委员会，这些委员会在某些国家可能只有少数几个人，在美国则超过100人，而英国大约是它的一半。

And then beyond that input draft standards are also made available for public comment at least once during their development cycle and sometimes more. So you know from an OHS perspective where the importance of collaboration has long been recognised, the ISO process itself provides excellent opportunities for a real diversity of input. And it requires of course the committees themselves then to work very collaboratively to reach consensus when considering how to address the many sometimes thousands of comments received on each draft of a document.
除这些输入之外，标准草案在其制定周期中也至少向公众征询一次意见，有时甚至更多。因此，从职业健康安全的角度来看，合作的重要性早已是共识，ISO过程本身为真正多样化的输入提供了绝佳的机会。当然，在考虑如何处理每个文件草案收到的许多意见时，委员会本身也需要很好地合作，以达成共识。

So I think its interesting to realise that the stronger emphasise on worker participation that we see in ISO 45001 was effectively the result of a wider participation in the development of that standard, so the standard is itself an illustration of the fact that wider consultation and participation produces better results.
意识到,所以我认为它有趣更强调对工人的参与,我们看到在ISO 45001是有效的结果更广泛参与标准的发展,所以标准的这一事实本身就是一个说明广泛协商和参与会产生更好的结果。所以我觉得有趣的是，我们意识到，我们在ISO 45001中看到的更加强调员工参与，其实是更广泛参与标准制定的有效结果。所以标准本身就是一个很好的例子来说明广泛协商和参与会产生更好的结果。

And I’ll just digress for one moment to say that why I think it’s so important for users to take the chance to comment on draft standards when they’re available for public comment. Every comment is individually considered by the committee, that is a requirement of the process and those comments really do make a difference to what eventually gets published.
说点题外话，即为什么我认为当标准草案征询公众意见时，使用者抓住机会发表意见如此重要。每一个评论都会由委员会进行考虑，这是过程的要求，而这些评论确实会对最终发表的内容产生影响。

So I’d really encourage people to consider also you know perhaps joining national mirror committees too for an even greater opportunity to influence the content of standards, and an opportunity also to better understand other people’s perspectives on some of the contentious issues.
所以我真的鼓励大家考虑加入国家镜像委员会，以获得更大的机会来影响标准内容，也有机会更好地理解其他人对一些有争议的问题的观点。

We hear a lot about diversity and inclusion these days, how does that impact on worker participation?
最近我们听到很多关于多样性和包容性的说法，这对员工参与有什么影响？

Diversity and inclusion is an area really of some concern to us in the ISO OHS Committee as there is some recent ISO research which has indicated that we just haven’t been as successful as we hoped in getting across the message that organisations need to consider and address the needs of all workers and interested parties and that this means addressing the full diversity of individuals within these groups.
多样性和包容性是我们ISO职业健康安全委员会真正关注的一个领域，因为最近ISO的一些研究表明，我们并没有像我们希望的那样成功地传达这样的信息：组织需要考虑和解决所有员工和相关方的需求，这意味着要解决这些群体中个人的全部多样性问题。

So for example gender specific needs including those of women, the needs of pregnant workers and new parents. The needs of workers of different age, taking into account both older workers and younger workers whose needs are quite different and indeed the needs of people with disabilities. And indeed there are other factors to consider as well, you know ethnicity for example is, can be a relevant factor because of the implication that that has in terms for example of different physical body sizes and the OHS implications of that.
例如，包括妇女在内的特定性别需求、怀孕员工和新父母的需求。不同年龄的员工的需求，既要考虑到老年员工，也要考虑到需求迥异的年轻员工，实际上还要考虑到残疾人的需求。事实上，还需要考虑其他因素，例如种族可以是一个相关的因素，因为这涉及到不同的体型和职业健康安全的影响。

Now very often in the early drafts of our standards we’ve included lists of examples exactly like the one I’ve just given you, but often in later iterations of the standards we substituted much more generic wording such as you know the phrases like consider the needs of all workers.
现在，在我们的标准的早期草案中，我们经常包括与我刚才所举例子完全一样的例子清单，但在后来的标准迭代中，我们往往用更通用的措辞来代替，比如您知道的“考虑所有员工的需求”这样的用语。

And what the ISO research has told us is that without the prompts provided by such specific examples many users interpret the requirements more narrowly and fail to consider the full spectrum of needs, needs of workers and interested parties. Because part of the role of those examples was to alert us to things which the reader just might not think of or might be unaware of and where a very specific prompt is necessary, and you know perhaps a good example of that would be the need to consider adjustments to light and noise levels for people with neurodiverse conditions such as autism. You know a generic phrase like ‘consider the needs of all workers’ is never going to prompt somebody who doesn’t have an awareness of those factors around autism to think well this maybe relevant to you know workers within my organisation.
而ISO的研究告诉我们，如果没有这种具体例子的提示，许多使用者对要求的解释会更加狭隘，而且未能考虑到全面的需求、员工和相关利益方的需求。因为这些例子的部分作用是提醒我们注意读者可能没有想到或可能没有意识到的事情，在这些事情上有必要进行非常具体的提示，您知道的，需要考虑为患有神经性疾病（如自闭症）的人员调整光线和噪音水平也许就是一个很好的例子。你知道像“考虑所有员工的需求”这样的通用短语永远不会促使那些不了解自闭症相关因素的人员好好思考这可能与其组织内的员工有关。

So we’re starting to introduce much more specific wording and examples into the guidance standards that we currently have under development and we’ll need to do the same of course with ISO 45001 when its eventually revised. So the implication for worker consultation and participation is that it needs to be capturing input which reflects the full diversity of worker needs and there needs to be mechanisms to ensure that where individuals and groups are not directly involved themselves in that consultation or participation, those who are involved both can and do fully reflect their needs.
因此，我们开始在我们目前正在制定的指导标准中引入更具体的措辞和示例，当然，在最终修订ISO 45001时，我们也需要这样做。因此，员工协商和参与的意义在于，它需要收集反映员工需求的全面多样性的输入，并且需要有机制来确保在个人和团体不直接投入到协商或参与的情况下，那些投入其中的人员都可以而且确实充分反映了他们的需求。

And there must be a connection to the participation and collaboration we’re talking about here and the management of workers psychological health and wellbeing addressed in ISO 45003?
我们在这里谈论的参与和协作是否肯定与ISO 45003的员工心理健康和福祉的管理有联系？

I think the significance of worker participation as a positive contribution to workers psychological health and wellbeing comes out very clearly in ISO 45003 when it identifies the factors in fact that can be harmful to workers psychological health and wellbeing at work. The standard specifically mentions limited input to decision making as a factor that can be harmful to workers psychological health and wellbeing.
我认为员工参与对员工心理健康和幸福的积极贡献的重要性在ISO 45003中得到了非常明确的体现，因为它确定了事实上可能对员工心理健康和工作中的幸福感有害的因素。该标准特别提到对决策的有限投入是可能对员工心理健康和福祉有害的一个因素。

But equally significantly pretty much every other factor mentioned in the standard as potentially causing harm to workers psychological health and wellbeing is something where consultation collaboration could help avoid that harm occurring. And I’m thinking of examples such as, and these are the ones cited in the standard, you know lack of necessary tools, equipment and resources, inadequate maintenance and repair of equipment, poor workplace conditions in terms of lighting, heating, ventilation or noise, failure to listen to and act on complaints or suggestions. And another one is role ambiguity or role conflict.
但同样重要的是，标准中提到的几乎所有其他可能对员工的心理健康和福祉造成伤害的因素，都是协商和协作可以帮助避免伤害发生的。我想到了一些例子，而这些也是标准中引用的例子，比如缺乏必要的工具、设备和资源，设备维护和维修不足，工作场所的照明、供暖、通风或噪音条件差，未能倾听投诉或建议并采取行动。而另一个是职责角色模糊或角色冲突。

So there’s a really clear connection here you know consultation and participation provide a direct opportunity to address specific concerns that may otherwise cause psychological harm to workers if they’re left unaddressed. But they also provide the means to build a positive culture around OH&S within the organisation, which ultimately enables people to feel valued and included. And that means being able to contribute their ideas without wondering how they’ll be treated as a result, so that people are comfortable to voice concerns within the workplace when that’s necessary.
因此，这里有一个非常明确的联系，协商和参与为解决特定问题提供了一个直接的机会，如果这些问题得不到解决，可能会对员工造成心理伤害。但它们也提供了在组织内围绕职业健康安全建立积极文化的方法，而这种文化最终会使人们感到被重视和被包容。这意味着他们能够贡献自己的想法，而不必担心自己会因此受到怎样的对待，这样，在必要的时候，他们可以在工作场所畅所欲言。

In other words OH&S management depends on collaboration between organisations and their workers, its really in everybody’s interests to have effective consultation and participation for a number of reasons. Wider input produces better decisions, involving workers in decision making creates buy in for those decisions and that in turn helps with implementation. And then the process of consultation and participation itself positively contributes to the phycological health and wellbeing of the workforce and helps build a positive culture within the organisation.
换句话说，职业健康安全管理有赖于组织和员工之间的合作，有很多理由可以说，有效的协商和参与确实符合所有人的利益。更广泛的投入会产生更好的决策，让员工参与决策会为这些决策创造认同感，进而有助于实施。此外，协商和参与的过程本身就积极地促进了员工的心理健康和幸福感，并有助于在组织内营造一种积极的文化。